[TJScanlon]

Hello

I am novice as well. I received some good help here but the boards are not super active.

You can also try Scannerdanner.com and the forum’s there. They are a little more active.

[TJScanlon]

Hello Borgunit,

I am a novice but have learned a ton from watching the videos on this site as well as others such as ScannerDanner. I started with the BlueDriver which seems very similar to the ANCEL, except it works via bluetooth and uses your phone or ipad. I ultimately wanted something a little better with better live graphing – I was trying to troubleshoot and verify a bad O2 Sensor. I also wanted to graph multiple inputs at the same time, which BlueDriver can do but measurement interval increases with each input you graph. I found some free software for my laptop that worked with Ford-Mazda called FORScan, there may be something similar for GM. I only had to purchase a recommended OBDII cable for it to work. It provides much better graphing. The Blue Driver just didn’t seem to react fast enough but it was pretty good.

Good luck,
Tom Scanlon

[TJScanlon]

Hello all,

Thanks to all that have helped with my 2008 Mazda 6 2.3L. Wanted to post a quick update to this. The primary o2 wide band sensor was bad. I am not sure if it was completely Kaput when I first started this but by the end it was. I don’t recall checking at the beginning of my educational odyssey learning about this, but at the end I checked and the fuel loop status and it was Open. It never went into Closed Loop. I didn’t know enough to check that at the start of this but learned as I went along. I assumed that when the engine warmed up and idle dropped that indicated it was in closed loop but I was wrong.

I had to remove the cat to get enough access to the primary o2 sensor to remove it. Decided to replace the secondary o2 sensor at the same time while I had the cat off as it was original with 150k on it. The gasket I got from auto store is wrong and I have an exhaust leak but the system goes into closed loop and responds as it should. Received the correct gasket today and will be replacing this weekend. I have a stuck exhaust manifold spring stud that I need to get out as well so I don’t have to pry the cat off it. Hoping heat, PB Blaster, wax and a stud removal tool will be successful. I don’t want to make this harder than it should be:-).

Then I need to chase down an oil leak and figure out what I need to do to correct that. I now officially have more in tools than I do in the car but am having a blast learning and doing this.

Anyway – wanted to post in case someone searched this in the future.

Thanks,
Tom Scanlon

[TJScanlon]

Apex

Thanks again for your help. I am learning so much…. but know so little:-).

So here is where I am at. I started thinking about the codes more and realized I don’t understand how or when they are stored. Once the CEL comes on, do new codes over write what was there before? I don’t know but the more I thought about it, I thought maybe not and perhaps I am looking at old data? In trying the propane (which I am still not sure if my flow was enough – I was using a torch nozzle and could hear and smell it but maybe the flow wasn’t enough to impact engine?) In any case, in using that I was lifting the air box which stresses the MAF cable which I will get to in a second. I then decided to clear the codes which I had not done for awhile. This was last weekend. I have driven the car about 30 mile s since then and it has been on about 10 short trips. So it has been cycled on and off 10 times. I have no codes or pending codes. LTFT is still running -20.3%.

I have since gotten Forscan and the live scanning/graphing is superior than BlueDriver. BlueDriver is a little easier for a novice to use though. I have also gotten the Factory Service Manual for the 2008 Mazda 6 and that has a ton of data and expected values.

So here is where I am at. CEL is still off after clearing and driving 30 miles. I have no codes. I have no pending codes. My LTFT is still running -20.3% at idle but goes to 0 upon acceleration and pretty much stays there while driving.

According to the factory manual the O2S1 should measure 0.0 mA while driving at 3000 rpm and when take foot off the gas it should jump up to 0.25mA. Mine seems to read a steady 6.45 mA while driving and drops to -4.39mA when foot comes off accelerator.

MAF looks to be at about 2.4 g/s at idle and and went up to about 60 g/s at 3300rpm. It seems to track well with RPM.

I don’t know if when I was moving the air intake box around trying to shoot the propane if I made made the MAF connection better. I have just used electrical cleaner on those connections.

So – no CEL, LTFT at -20.3%, O2S1 seems to have a weird reading at 6.45mA when from what I can tell from manual it should be around 0.

I wish I had a way to attach the graph as it may make more sense to others. Right now the car appears to be running without errors but the LTFT and the O2S1 seem off?

Thanks
Tom

[TJScanlon]

Thank you again Apex!

I did watch the video on Wide Band it was helpful. I did the WOT test yesterday and the B1S1 reacted similar to how the Toyota did in Matt’s video so now I am coming to the conclusion it may not be the A/F sensor. Unless there is a wiring issue that causes some intermittent issues – I am not familiar enough at all with the A/F sensors to know if they go bad is it binary, ie it is bad or it is good, or do they fail gradually?

I am going to clear the codes today to make sure I am not looking at old data now that the conditions have changed.

The one item that I haven’t been able to eliminate is the PCV and hose. It seems to be a common failure on the 2.3L Mazda. The unfortunate thing is it is under the intake manifold so I have to remove that to get at it. At this age and mileage, it is likely it has a leak or will have a leak. I really don’t want to do that until spring/summer:-).

I have a shop manual coming for this from eBay which hopefully will help. I am also going to download Forscan which is scanner software for Ford and Mazda and hopefully be able to get some better data.

I have downloaded the CSV’s into Excel and tried to graph but it was unsatisfactory. With the BlueDriver it looks to measure every 0.1 seconds for each measurement, so if I am tracking 5 PID’s it measure every 0.5 seconds. It doesn’t recommend more that 5 but I have done up to 7, but measurements every 0.7 seconds.

Thank you for taking the time to reply – I really appreciate it. I hope to post some more info today. I am also checking out info at scannerdanner which has also been helpful. Between Matt and Paul Danner I have learned a ton in the last 3 to 4 weeks. It doesn’t seem like it at the moment but if I look back to what I knew then, it isn’t even close.

Thanks,
Tom

[TJScanlon]

Updating with history into one message
Ok – now things have changed and I am really struggling to figure this out. So originally had CEL and these three codes. I am summarizing where I started and where I am at – sorry for the novel but documenting this helps me try to make sense as well. As always – thanks to all for any suggestions. I hope to be in a position someday where I can help some other newbie!
Before these codes I changed valve cover gasket (lots of oil leak into spark plug wells and side of engine) and replaced spark plugs at that time. The codes did not occur right after this so I am not sure there is any connection but wanted to share it. After codes showed up, I cleaned MAF with MAF cleaner – did look quite dirty and now is cleaner. It did not fix the CEL or codes.
2008 Mazda 6 i4 2.3L 149k
P2177 System Too Lean off Idle Bank 1
P2187 System Too Lean at Idle Bank 1
P2097 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich Bank 1
Using BlueDriver live data on a warm engine parked.
At idle 750 RPM
STFT 25%
LTFT 0%
O2B1S2 0.965v
Wide Range O2 B1S1 6.449 mA
At 2000 and 3000 RPM
STFT 25%
LTFT. 0%
O2. 0.965v
Wide Range O2 B1S1 6.449 mA

When taking foot off accelerator within 3 seconds
STFT 25% to 0% and then back to 25% within 3 seconds
LTFT 0% this does not fluctuate
O2 B1S2 (downstream) goes from 0.965v to 0.8v back to 0.965v
Wide Range O2 B1S1 6.449 mA

I tried using propane to see if I could detect a vacuum leak or induce a change but detected no change no matter where I placed the propane.
Freeze Frame showed the P2177 triggered the CEL and it occurred while driving around 2000rpm and 35-50mph (I cleared it and checked again).
So fundamentally the Wide Range O2 B1S1 did not change with RPM nor did the STFT or LTFT?
During this time I have not driven the car much – probably less than 20 to 30 miles as it is my 16 year olds car that we are working on and with the pandemic, just hasn’t been much need to drive.
Now the readings just changed. I suspect this is because we have driven the car enough to reset the LTFT. It is now set at -20%. Here are the changes with a new pending code – P2188 System Too Rich at Idle Bank 1.

Confirmed Codes:
P2177 System Too Lean off Idle Bank 1
P2187 System Too Lean at Idle Bank 1
P2097 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich Bank 1
Pending Code:
P2188 System Too Rich at Idle Bank 1
Measurements now from BlueDriver (every 0.7 seconds):
Idle 750 rpm
STFT 0%
LTFT -20.3%
O2 B1S1 Equiv Ratio 1.010
O2 B1S1 mA 6.461
O2 B1S2 V Started 0 – went to 0.945 after about 60 seconds for 10 seconds, then went to 0.015v for about 20 seconds then stayed at 0.880-0.965v for last 2 minutes of measurements?
Commanded Equiv Ratio 1.008

2000 rpm
STFT 0%
LTFT -0.0%
O2 B1S1 Equiv Ratio 1.010
O2 B1S1 mA 6.461
O2 B1S2 V 0.965v
Commanded Equiv Ratio 1.001

So like I mentioned – it appears that finally drove enough to reset the LTFT to -20.3. The O2B1S1 mA doesn’t change at all with RPM. The LTFT goes from -20.3 to 0 with increase in RPM. The STFT does not change at all with RPM.
Before the LTFT reset to -20.3. The STFT was always at 25 and LTFT was at 0. These did not change at all with RPM, except for the short blip when foot came off the gas and STFT went from 25 to 0 for a couple seconds (open loop?) then went right back to 25.
I tried propane again around intake manifold, vacuum lines and even open the air filter box and sent it right in the intake and it seemed to make ZERO difference.
Using Mode6 on the Blue Driver
O2 Sensor B1S1: Test did not complete.
O2 Sensor B1S2: completed and passed.
EVAP Monitor (0.040” and 0.090”) Test: did not complete (I have not checked this)
Purge Flow Monitor Test: did not complete

I will need to get a better scanner that allows graphing (the BlueDriver does but it doesn’t measure fast enough and doesn’t save the graphs – it saves the values in a CSV. I think it is a nice little $99 Bluetooth OBDII but as I am getting into this more, I will need a better scan tool).
I don’t want to be a parts changer but I am getting to the point where I am thinking of putting in a new Wide Range O2 Sensor. I am trying to learn this but I am super busy with work and I want to start eliminating potential sources and issues. From what I have read – the Wide Range O2 (AF) sensors have about a 150k mile expected life and I am right at that point.
I am really kind of impressed with what I have learned over the last 2 to 3 weeks but it is clear that this takes time to sink in. The other mitigating factor is it is COLD in Minnesota right now which makes it hard to get excited about working on my sons car. This is practice for me for when I buy my used Miata.

[TJScanlon]

For anyone following this. I don’t have an answer yet but did take some more readings with the BlueDriver. I am not sure how this will post below but here are the readings and the codes. From Left most column is STFT which is pretty well stuck at +25% at idle, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm. It drops to 0% when I let off the gas but quickly returns to +25%. The LTFT has never moved from 0% and this is over the last couple weeks. The car hasn’t been driven a ton but probably 20-30 miles.

I am very new at this and trying to digest this. So it looks like the system is maxing out the STFT at +25% (which seems low as max?) which is lean, the O2B1S2 is showing rich. It appears that the system can’t hit stoichometry and the STFT is trying to adjust but is maxed out but because the O2 sensor never gets to equilibrium the LTFT never adjusts to +25%.

I could not detect any vacuum leaks but there areas I can’t see or get at easily under the intake manifold.

My BlueDriver does not show waveforms so I can’t see if the O2 sensor oscillates properly.

I am just not understanding how I can have lean condition on the STFT and a rich reading on the O2 sensor and the LTFT stays at 0.

Thoughts on what to check next?

So the numbers from Left to Right are STFT, RPM, MAF, O2B1S2(V), O2B1S1(mA), LTFT

P2177 System Too Lean off Idle Bank 1
P2187 System Too Lean at Idle Bank 1
P2097 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim Systerm Too Rich Bank 1

Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 (%) Engine RPM (rpm) Mass Air Flow Rate (lb/min) O2 Bank 1 – Sensor 2 – Oxygen Sensor Voltage (V) Wide Range O2S: Bank 1 – Sensor 1 – Current (mA) Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 (%)
25 731 0.4 0.965 6.449 0
25 884 0.6 0.97 6.449 0
25 1661 0.8 0.965 6.449 0
25 1860 0.8 0.965 6.449 0
25 1963 1.1 0.96 6.449 0
25 2329 1.5 0.961 6.449 0
25 2837 1.7 0.961 6.449 0
25 2733 1.5 0.957 6.449 0
25 3000 1.4 0.965 6.449 0
Consequetive 25 3030 1.5 0.965 6.449 0
Consequetive 18.7 2962 1.1 0.965 6.449 0
Consequetive 0 2517 0.7 0.953 6.449 0
Consequetive 0 2272 0.7 0.901 6.449 0
Consequetive 0 1719 0.7 0.476 6.449 0
Consequetive 0.1 1555 0.6 0.581 6.449 0
Consequetive 0 1375 0.7 0.86 6.449 0
Consequetive 0 1186 0.7 0.876 6.449 0
Consequetive 14.5 1120 0.7 0.9 6.449 0
Consequetive 25 1002 0.6 0.95 6.449 0
25 957 0.6 0.954 6.449 0
25 923 0.6 0.96 6.449 0
25 728 0.5 0.97 6.449 0

[TJScanlon]

Thanks Apex!

I am trying to get my head around all the readings, what they mean and how they relate. I had just watched Matt’s video where he talked about getting burned not looking at both STFT and LTFT – in it he had showed the O2 as high but noted that it should be low for Lean condition so my O2 was showing rich.

I will be looking at MAF readings tomorrow. The O2 sensor was B1S2, I have to believe my BlueDriver can read the B1S1 sensor but I must not of selected it during live reading. My BlueDriver OBD reader I am not sure reacts fast enough to see the oscillation in live setting. When I save the data is stores in Excel file and appears to take measurement every 0.5 seconds. As I get into this more I will need to look at a better diagnostic tool.

Really appreciate the lead on the MAF screw hole repair. The post hasn’t shown up yet but will check it out when it does – I was thinking the epoxy route but would like to check out the threaded insert before I go epoxy.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply – I really appreciate the help!

Thanks
Tom

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